Jessica Neville on Healing, Cancer, and Mindfulness Meets Self-Compassion

For much of her life, Jessica Neville thought that having a plan for everything would keep her safe.  Jenn talks with Jessica about how being diagnosed with breast cancer in the spring of 2021 spurred her to throw away her plan, reconnect with her body, and begin a path to healing.

Guest Bio: Read more about Jessica here

Guest Location: Vermont, US

Resources from Jessica's Journey:

• Insight Meditation Society
• Tara Brach – Meditation, Psychologist, Author, Teacher  
• Breathing Exercises and Techniques by Andrew Weil, M.D.
• “Life Is a Song” by Patrick Park  

Transcript

Jennifer Wynn  0:17  

Hi, welcome to this episode of The H.I. Note: Healing Inspirations from Life. I'm your host, Jenn Wynn. Today we talked to Jessica Neville about healing, breast cancer and meditation. I love Jess's way of describing how her mindfulness practices were a key part of healing and thriving after her cancer diagnosis. It made certain concepts around mindfulness, so clear for me, you can read Jess’s full bio in the show notes. But I'll say this, Jess has a way with words. And it makes sense. She's a PR strategist and a communications expert. In fact, I met Jess working together at NYU business school when she was prepping me for an event with the press. [laughing] We did this virtually since she lives in Vermont, and I live in New York. And then we just kept setting up zoom chats just to learn more about one another. Jess has a peace about her that I was tickled to find out was not always her way. [laughing] So there was real joy and peace and learning in my conversation with Jess, and please stick around afterwards for my love and learning outro which is a short reflection from me about my key takeaways from this conversation. Let's get started. 

Jennifer Wynn

Hi, everyone, I am so excited for today's guest. And in a moment, I'm gonna let her introduce herself.

Jessica Neville  1:45  

Thank you, Jenn. It's such a pleasure to be here with you. My name is Jess, by day I'm a PR strategist. But I don't like to be put in a box. And I think bigger picture, I feel like I've really become a seeker. And along the way found Vipassana insight meditation to help me reconnect to my body and to my heart and guide me in a direction towards healing. So I think I like to think of myself as a seeker. 

Jennifer Wynn  2:19  

That seeker quality has enabled me to learn so much from you. And all that you seek. I mean, starting with meditation, and you sharing the Insight Meditation Society's content—free content—with me.

Jessica Neville  2:33  

70 hours of free content. [laughing]

Jennifer Wynn  2:38  

Thank you for that. Yes. So I'm gonna guess you weren't always this peaceful. [laughing] Meditating 

Jessica Neville  2:51  

[Laughing] What makes you say that 

Jennifer Wynn  2:51  

simultaneously PR powerhouse, [laughing] kind of person. So I'm gonna ask you to take it back for me. When you were young, and we're all young, right? So this is like relatively speaking as a child or teenager. Give me a taste of young Jess.

Jessica Neville  3:11  

Young Jess. Uhm lots of sides to young Jess. 

Jennifer Wynn  3:14  

Let's start with a joyful one.

Jessica Neville  3:15  

I'll start with a joyful one.

Jennifer Wynn  3:17  

What was something you could do for hours on end. And it just gave me so much energy and joy. 

Jessica Neville  3:23  

I would say singing, often singing into the turkey baster [laughing] in the family room to Olivia Newton John on constant rotation for hours and hours.

Jennifer Wynn  3:37  

I'm picturing black leather pants like no one else could wear them in Grease right now. [laughing]

Jessica Neville  3:43  

[laughing] I will add that my bestie and I when we saw the movie proceeded to sing the entire movie out loud in the movie theater. So young Jess definitely had and still to this day has I think a very significant silly side. And I love people that bring that out in me. On the flip side. Yes. In college, my nickname was "Stressica.”

Jennifer Wynn  4:10  

Stressica? That sounds stressful. [laughing]

Jessica Neville  4:13  

Yeah, it was. It was pretty stressful. And I guess I'll give a young example: in the fourth grade when I was passed as Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz, I not only memorized all of my lines, but I memorized everybody's lines. And we laugh about it a little bit in our family today. But the fact of the matter is it kind of pointed to uhm I think a delusion growing up that I thought you know if I just was perfect. If I did everything right. I would just always be safe. And so I worked really hard to try and be perfect.

Jennifer Wynn  4:49  

You at one point shared with me that you felt that you were mistaking perfectionism for safety.

Jessica Neville  4:55  

For sure. I mean, you think if you just put everything in place and you think that you can control circumstances, you know, if I just eat my kale every day, which I do, because I like it, that I'm going to be safe. And that's just not what life is all about. And I think that, you know, along my healing journey, I had a significant experience that we'll talk about that I think really shattered that delusion for me, in a good way.

Jennifer Wynn  5:24  

Hmm. Well, let's go there. What was the moment that you knew you wanted to start your healing journey?

Jessica Neville  5:31  

Well, I like to think of my story in sort of three parts. There was sort of pre breast cancer diagnosis, breast cancer treatment, and then post treatment. And we touched a little bit on what life was like pre diagnosis. And I had started a meditation practice well before this, but the urgency to which I turned towards it really arose during this time. So it was summer of or excuse me, spring of 2021, where I was unexpectedly diagnosed with breast cancer. And it was early, but it was aggressive, and treatable. And this was right about the time we were in, you know, the COVID. I think, you know, we're always in COVID years now. But it was a time where there was a little bit of a respite. And people were making plans to see each other and I was getting ready for a year of active treatment, from surgery to chemotherapy to targeted treatment, radiation, and getting ready to just spend a lot of time at the hospital. I'm so grateful for all the nurses who became my social network for that year. 

Jennifer Wynn  6:46  

Nurses are amazing. 

Jessica Neville  6:47  

It was a shock.

Jennifer Wynn  6:49  

Yeah Jess, what are you feeling in this moment? Because you are the kale eating, [laughing] everybody's lines memorized, you know, meditating executive, right? What, what are you feeling when you get something that you can't control? A diagnosis beyond you?

Jessica Neville  7:08  

I think it really opened my eyes up to the truth of impermanence, which is one of the key teachings, one of the three characteristics in meditation, in the type of meditation I practice. I mean, everything is always changing. And if you look around, you know, there's the four seasons, things like arise and pass, moods come and go. And thinking that you can fight impermanence is just wrong. And the resistance leads to so much suffering. I remember too early on, you know, again, before all this being in yoga classes, and teachers would say, just let go, let go. And I’m like, but how do you let go, like, no one gave me the roadmap on how to let go. 

So I think, you know, there was a lot of shock and fear and terror at first. But very quickly, what came up for me was, you know, I am not going to let this thing get me down, and I'm going to fight through it. And I probably spent the next year in, you know, a fight mode, not an angry mode, but just, I had countdowns, I had people cheering me on, you know, we just kind of got through it. And you would think, great, you get to the end, and I got to the end, I'm here today. So grateful. And one of the things that was special is you get to ring the chimes in the hematology oncology ward, and I think it's for everybody else around there. And I had heard the times from others throughout my year, to just give them hope that, you know, hopefully for most people, you will walk out those doors. So I think I'm done and I get back.

Jennifer Wynn  8:53  

Victory! 

Jessica Neville  8:55  

Victory! And Jenn, this is when everything fell apart, really fell apart.

Jennifer Wynn  9:01  

How so? When you should be at the top of the mountain on your most victorious and triumphant day, you're feeling like you're falling apart?

Jessica Neville  9:09  

like you're falling apart. Well, I came to learn that this is not atypical for cancer patients, you can feel different emotions at any point throughout the cycle. I think in my like, stressica fight through it, kind of attitude, there were a lot of things that I suppressed and also when I was done this network of people that I was seeing on a weekly basis, you know, kind of they left me which is, you know, is a good thing. But every odd sensation that I felt in my body, I just was convinced that every single thing was cancer, and I really entered like a frozen state. I felt like my body was like really frozen and stuck and locked. Or I was just feeling a lot of energetic pain, moving through my body, and I said, I'm, I can't live like this. What, what do we do? 

Jennifer Wynn  10:08  

Frozen in fear?

Jessica Neville  10:10  

Frozen in fear.

Jennifer Wynn  10:11  

What were you missing out on as a result of that paralysis? And that stuckness?

Jessica Neville  10:18  

Well, I was so caught up in the stories that were going on in my mind. And I think it was a period of aversion, aversion, aversion, you know, I've got through this whole year, it's time for me to get back. This can't be happening, like resistance. And I tried all sorts of things to find some calm. You know, I tried physical therapy. I tried acupuncture, and nothing was really working. I remembered back to, okay, wait a minute, you have a meditation practice. And I started just listening to everything. Every day, I would be walking with the dog and listening and learning to Tara Brach and to insight meditation, to how to calm your nervous system, all these things, but really, what started to happen is I started to really practice. And the essence of what was the core of that practice was, I had to just turn towards what was happening. And I had to accept what was here and find a way to be with it. And then things started to change.

Jennifer Wynn  11:36  

Okay, this is fascinating. [chuckling] So, at the very moment that you conquer breast cancer, you ought to or think you ought to be riding high, and you're feeling so low. And the story you're telling yourself, in your mind is, I'm not allowed to feel this way. And if I'm feeling pain, or fear, or anxiety or sadness, then I'm not doing it right. Is that, is that what you're telling yourself?

Jessica Neville  12:06  

I think that was definitely part of it. And I think also, there was just so much grief, and loss. You know, we had been so isolated during COVID. And then I had an extra year of isolation, because of my treatment, and but at the same point in time, I didn't want to go back. I wasn't trying to find my life before this because so much had changed. And I think, in the quietude that I had, over the course of the year, you know, there are some things that I did that I continued to do, till this day. For example, I started a gratitude practice every night in bed, when I was feeling wonky from the medicine, I just, you know, went through and thought about all the people and things that I was living beings, birds, support network that I was grateful for, and it did give like a warmth in in my heart. While everything else was going on. 

I think, you know, that was almost my first glimpse of the fact that I was not going to be able to think my way out of how I was feeling. I think I really had to say, mind, thank you so much, you've done so much for me, but we have to put you aside and drop out of the stories and drop into our body and begin to discern what I'm feeling in my body, what does fear look like, feel like, what does joy feel like? What does calm? What does agitation and I just started practicing all the time, and got to know, got to reconnect or maybe connect for the first time in an authentic way with my body and with my heart?

Jennifer Wynn  14:07  

So I'm hearing you say, at the very moment that I wanted to control what I was feeling, I also knew that going back to stressica [laughing] was not the answer. 

Jessica Neville

Correct. 

Jennifer Wynn

That was not it. And that I had to choose something different.

Jessica Neville  14:28  

I should also say this was by no means a linear path. Healing I think is this circular, ups, downs insights, peel away the onion, more comes up. I don't want people to think that I just practice every day and I'm healed. No, no, no. 

This was working with it bit by bit and over time by turning to my body and really building a capacity to be with the sensations that were there. And part of that was, my goodness, you know, mindfulness is one piece of this puzzle. But without self compassion, you get nowhere. And this is really when I think, my, I turned also to my heart, to just bring a lot of care and kindness, and non judgment, and acceptance for this is my journey, and this is where I'm at. It really warms my heart that you respond to my curiosity, because I think that this was a time in my life where my curiosity really began to come on board. And as the fear of what was going on, you could be there, but there was some spaciousness that came around it. And then I became more curious, you know, well, what's going on here? And maybe what's this emotion and can we just learn to let it be here, let it arise and pass. 

Again, this is just a practice for me, it will be a lifelong practice. But what I started to experience in my body was almost over months and months, a melting, an easing, an opening space that I probably didn't feel in my body before all this started.

Jennifer Wynn  16:27  

So Jess give me an example, then, of when you first started to try not to control those feelings. But instead, as you put it, to hold them with care and non judgment and curiosity. Did it go swimmingly the first time?

Jessica Neville  16:42  

Oh, gosh, no, I kept asking, Can someone please define self compassion for me? Because my, you know, PR mine was like self compassion is this, let's use it in a press release. 

Jennifer Wynn

I will think my way through these feelings…

Jessica Neville

I will think my way through self compassion. No, it did not go swimmingly. But I just brought on all the resourcing, again, that I learned from others. So for example, when I would lay down and meditate because that was most comfortable for my body, I would just put my hand on my heart, or my hand on my belly and my heart, and just even feel your heartbeat. You know, in and tune into that, I would bring the kind of voice to myself. Let's just be here, we can do this. Let's just rest in the sensations. 

And I have to say, I don't know if this will make sense. But I remember a visceral moment, where my mind let go. It was, and I call it this mind gaze. It was like my mind watching my body, like, I'm gonna do this. The mind's got this, and it just, something just shifted, and I dropped into my body. And it was really exciting.

Jennifer Wynn  17:59  

Mm hmm. Where were you? What? What do you remember feeling?

Jessica Neville  18:03  

I remember, just feeling like a letting go, like a letting go of my mind trying to hold on and fix this.

Jennifer Wynn  18:15  

And so by accepting that you couldn't think your way through it, you release the need to control it. And you could just be with it. And you had more space to hold these complex emotions.

Jessica Neville  18:27  

That's part of it. But also, it's just, we, I'll speak from my own experience, I think, you know, given how we live in the modern world, we're so disembodied. And I feel like by taking this time every day to drop into my body, and begin to almost develop that sense. It's like that sense was muted. Because you know, we're so visual, we take in so much through our eyes, for those of us who can see like all of our sense doors, but this embodiment this, like sense of what is going on in your system that you you feel but feel is not even a strong enough word for it. It's it becomes your aware of it just hadn't really been developed.

Jennifer Wynn  19:18  

Yes, I have a vivid memory of myself and a key moment in my healing journey. When I was sitting in my therapist's office, and she asked me to respond to myself to your point of perfectionism being mistaken for safety. And she's asked me to treat myself. She didn't she didn't even asked me to do that yet. She first asked, How would you respond if one of your kids said this? And I answered her, literally. I said, Well, I would get down on my knees and lower myself to their eye level. And let them know that I hear them and I understand that feeling. And I'd probably wrap my arms around them and hold them and be quiet for a little while so they could feel me with them in that space of what they were going through and, and how hurt they felt. And then I let them know that I'm going to stay right here. And we're going to figure it out, and it's going to be okay. 

And it took me closing my eyes and visualizing every move I would make how with them, I would be, I wouldn't tell them no, you know, snap to it get together, let's get it together, let's go, [chuckling] you got you got kindergarten homework to do. [chuckling] I wouldn't do that I'd stay with them. And that presents that with-ness often is enough to help them feel like, okay, I got it, I can move forward. And once I could feel myself holding one of my kids, I could hold myself that way. So it really resonates when you say, I had to put my hand on my heart, I had to use a kind voice with myself. I had to take all five of my senses, or as many of them as I could, and act out love like a verb for myself.

Jessica Neville  21:09  

I think that embodiment is such a transformative force for healing. I think that there is so much wisdom in our bodies. And to get more of that kind of balance has really been so significant for me. And I continue to learn every day.

Jennifer Wynn  21:35  

Mm-hmm.  And to your point of healing not being a linear journey. You're reminding me of how important awareness and the ability to focus on what I'm feeling. And sensing in my mind, heart and body actually kept becoming more layered for me. So for example, when I moved to a gratitude practice, as you had, and you said, I heard the birds chirping, I appreciated the birds. I brought my awareness to the world around me, then I think maybe in 2021, I took a course at The Embodiment Institute. And that was the first time I realized I could bring my awareness to my body, not just to my mind and to the world around me. And it was at that point that I started to feel like I knew myself more. I was connected with myself in the moment, I didn't have to wait till I was journaling, or having a reflection, you know, 20 minutes that I gave myself at the end of the week or the end of the month, to get to know myself. I could drop into my body and feel all the things—the worry, the joy, the questioning that was running through my body. And I know myself, I'd know her better. And I think I'm hearing something similar with you, a greater connection with yourself, once you tapped into the wisdom of the body.

Jessica Neville  22:56  

Absolutely. I really think it took a life altering event to help me to really wake up with a sense of urgency, one that impermanence is real. And so the only thing that we have is the present moment. So let's pay attention. And let's be with things as they are. And it sounds counter intuitive, that being with things as they are is not as good as trying to control things as you want them to be. But it is liberation. So I think learning to be with things as they are and then, you know, we've talked a lot about the tough emotions. 

But also we can teach the body what it feels like to feel good in the body, and to linger in the goodness. Glad in the heart. You know, for me, when I wake up in the morning here in Vermont, I am so lucky to often hear six or seven different kinds of birds just chirping and singing. And instead of rushing to get ready for the day, like just take a moment and like what does that feel like in the body and teaching your body like what it feels like to feel good? It just continues I think to open the heart.

Jennifer Wynn  24:19  

What a beautiful surprise that in the moment that I'm trying to teach myself how to sit with the scary emotions, [laughing] the anxiety, the worry, the why can't I control this, the unknown is frightening me, etc. I can use that exact same awareness muscle and connection with myself to really sink into the joyful emotions. That really makes it worth it.

Jessica Neville  24:46  

It totally does. And by paying attention to when those joys arise, and they don't have to be in big ways. It could be your first sip of coffee in the morning. What whatever whatever it is for you, but just linger and and and again not thinking about it. But what does it feel like? And for me, it's often, like a nice stirring in the heart or like a spaciousness in my body. It's not a constricted time. Why not linger for just a little bit?

Jennifer Wynn  25:19  

Tell me about spaciousness right now. And I heard you say warmth earlier. And I heard you say, liberation, is that what healing was feeling like to you? How did you know you were healing?

Jessica Neville  25:33  

How did I know I was healing or beginning to heal? Well, the early days of it were really difficult having to be with painful sensations running up and down my body that I have decided were fear in an energetic way. But I just, I would stay with it and keep my hand on my heart. And just remind myself again, about the truth of impermanence, this will pass. And it was maybe a rough week of that being sort of at its worst, but then things started to subside a bit. And so I got really excited, oh, things are changing. And by beginning to see even just the tiniest bits of change, I was so motivated to continue. And I'm like, wow, if we could do this, like, where could where do we go from here, let's keep going. 

And I also have a daily yoga practice. Because I think, you know, this reconnection with my body, there is such joy in moving in your body. And that is something I am grateful for every single day, whether it's my dog walks, my yoga practice, my super joyful dance class that I go to every week that I can say more about. But as I continued with this work, different things were softening, everything was just always changing, and just starting to melt and open. And so I guess I knew I was healing when my body started telling me I was healing. 

And then also, there's a real difference between being happy and being peaceful. And I began to embody what it would feel like to have just moments of real peace, don't cling to it, boy I'd love to have it all the time, don't cling to it, it's gonna come and go. But while it's there, just enjoy it. 

Jennifer Wynn  27:30  

Wow, a gradual melting, dripping away of the moments that felt least peaceful to us.

Jessica Neville  27:41  

Like you were saying about your children when they needed you. I think for ourselves, we want to be seen and heard and recognized, and not just by others, but by ourselves. And I think that was also a key aspect of the healing journey was turning towards and recognizing what was here, and accepting that I'm working with it, where it was, let's see things as they really are, and be there versus being a story about how I want it to be. And that level of beginning to learn how to surrender, because I think I will be a surrender student for the rest of my life. It was life altering, I mean, resistance causes suffering. Things can be painful. We all have painful things in our lives. Pain is a fact of life. But we don't have to resist it. And I think I was also just building up the courage to, to look. 

Jennifer Wynn  28:47  

And what I'm hearing is seeing myself, in all my complexity, is one of the greatest sources of empowerment I have. Because yes, we do all want to be seen, but I can't control whether you see me and what my heart really holds. But I can control whether I do.

Jessica Neville  29:06  

Absolutely.

Jennifer Wynn  29:07  

It is entirely within my locus of control, to choose and put in the hard but worth it work, to see myself. That sounds so empowering to me.

Jessica Neville  29:18  

Well, it's been really exciting. And while I wish that I could have learned or got on this path through some other means besides breast cancer. And again, with such gratitude for my health care team, and all of my friends and family and colleagues such support throughout this, and thank you Western medicine, but it was going to take something to create a sense of urgency to do this work now. And now that I see the power and possibility, you know, as I sort of look forward, I don't know what's next. But it's okay. Let's just see where this work takes me in terms of what that will mean in my life. And you know that also just lets me appreciate that I'm right here in conversation with you right now.

Jennifer Wynn  30:15  

So, right now you're the hero of your own journey. You've figured out a variety of ways to sit with all the emotions, to be aware, to be curious, to feel life in an embodied way, to feel gratitude, so on and so forth. Who taught you this? Are there people? Or is there a person that you can tell me about who has helped you on your healing journey?

Jessica Neville  30:42  

Well, thank you, Buddha. I'll start there. I am so indebted. I will start with Tara Brach, who is pivotal in terms of bringing meditation from the east to the west. I had her podcasts on constant rotation, she does guided embodied meditation, where when it was too busy, in my own mind, I let her talk me through it. I've read all of her books. And I was very lucky, when I was again, sort of in the turmoil of “this is not what I expected, and now I really want some help” to have connected with a meditation teacher who became my personal teacher who was a protege of hers. It was just, I don't know, two degrees of separation. And I felt so lucky. And we just had this connection. And so I had guided support. Working with me, and I really just got curious and just started taking what I would hear on my daily walk and putting it into practice that day. And sitting with that for a while.

Jennifer Wynn  32:00  

Yes, I love this just the way you had the nurses and the health care team, helping you beat this diagnosis. You also had Tara's podcast, and your meditation teacher, your your soul care team, the fact that we can't do this alone, and that we are building community around us. And they can give us tools that we hadn't used before, sources of inspiration, might even be accountability buddies,[laughing] consistently meeting with that teacher or mentor, the fact that we need all of those things, and yet, we still have to put in the work and commit to the practice. The continuity is key.

Jessica Neville  32:44  

That's absolutely right, Jenn, I think that one there, there are like minded beings like us out there doing their work, we are not alone, for sure. And I think being part also of a meditation community is—with other like minded folks that are on their own paths—is very motivating and very uplifting. But you can't study your way to practice. This is an this is an experiential type of learning and work. And just reading, just listening. I mean, that gave me some more tools to work with. But then you've got to use the tools. And also I hate even the word work, because you're giving yourself healing and peace, like what better way to spend your time.

Jennifer Wynn  33:39  

That's not work. That's life.

Jessica Neville  33:40  

That's life. Exactly.

Jennifer Wynn  33:42  

And we are not alone. What a powerful concept. When did you first realize that you are not alone in this healing journey?

Jessica Neville  33:52  

I feel like it's a more recent understanding. Again, meditation being a theme for me here, but I was part of a study group with my regular meditation sangha that gets together. And we would choose a text together and practice together and then talk through the readings and how that affected our practice. And I said, Wow, spending three hours on a Saturday morning on zoom with these people is like, so wonderful. Like, I really learned so much. And it did make me feel like I'm not the only one doing this. And I think, you know, the more I talk to people, the more I'm finding that, you know, there's lots of different practices. This one is the one that works for me, but I feel like everyone is kind of on a healing journey of some sort.

Jennifer Wynn  34:44  

We've certainly been through a lot of pain recently. Yeah. For for the last few years in particular, but but for centuries as a nation, I, I'm really struck by the connection. I keep hearing in your story, connecting with self, connecting with your health care team, connecting with the members of the Sangha, connecting with nature. You're making me think of a bell hooks quote, "healing is an act of communion." And so I'm curious, that's bell hook's definition or one of hers, may she rest in peace. What is your definition of healing?

Jessica Neville  35:22  

I think healing is about opening your heart, really opening your heart, looking around at everything that is alive in our world, recognizing we're all made up of the same elements, and just being willing to feel it all to be alive. Like, I think that's what healing is about. It's not about trying to be safe, or I've got all those sensations they’re out of me now. And now I can start my life. No, it's really building, I think, a willingness and a capacity to open up all of your sense doors and let things arise and pass. And to have that kind of equanimity, with what it is to be human. I think that's what healing is about.

Jennifer Wynn  36:18  

Wow, I hear wholeness. And I hear peace with that wholeness.

Jessica Neville  36:23  

That's what I'm feeling.

Jennifer Wynn  36:28  

At this point, it may seem obvious, but I'm gonna ask. So why do you want to heal?

Jessica Neville  36:33  

I want to heal, because I want to be awake and alive and connected to everything that's going on in the gift of the present moment. Because what do we know, we could wake up tomorrow and things can just completely change. And I don't want to be, you know, you can't get the past back. You definitely can't control the future. I guess I just want to celebrate the gift of what is right now with the joys and the sorrows because you know, life is full of both of them.

Jennifer Wynn  37:10  

Where do you see your journey leading you next?

Jessica Neville  37:14  

Well, I feel very lucky that I have found a framework, a toolkit to live by. And so I absolutely plan to continue to deepen my meditation practice. Through our Sangha, there's a dedicated Dharma program that I'm going to sign up for, to see where that takes me. And really, to stay open to what may just come my way, whether it's what I want to eat for dinner tonight, that wasn't expected. It's so great not to have like, this is not about having the project plan of what's next. This is about practicing and staying curious and seeing what I learn.

Jennifer Wynn  38:00  

How does that relate to the quest for safety that I heard in your earlier years?

Jessica Neville  38:05  

There is no safety. Like there just isn't, in the sense of impermanence is just a truth. So nothing is fixed, nothing will stay exactly as you want it to be. However, impermanence doesn't need to be full of fear, let go. And just be okay with that. Because I think the real peace is when we cannot be attached to how we want things to be or how we don't want things to be. There's really nothing to be afraid of.

Jennifer Wynn  38:45  

I hear a conceptualization of safety in your younger years as something fixed, is that right?

Jessica Neville  38:52  

Oh yeah, you know, if you, if you do these seven things, then life is gonna be just like this. And it was so wrong. [laughing] 

Jennifer Wynn  39:06  

Sorry young Jessica.

Jessica Neville  39:08  

But you know, also too it’s very, very constricting way to see the world and I think that there is, I guess I'm choosing the prospect of liberation over the delusion of safety. 

Jennifer Wynn  39:26  

[Snapping fingers] Yes, you get snaps for that.

Jessica Neville  39:26  

I got snaps! I got snaps. [laughing]

Jennifer Wynn  39:30  

Jess, woo, yeah. I want to heal. [laughing] Give me some of that. Okay, that's what I wish for me. [laughing]

Jessica Neville  39:42  

We can share. 

Jennifer Wynn  39:45  

Okay, then what do you wish for others? 

Jessica Neville  39:49  

I hope that just in sharing my circuitous story here that maybe I just give people a tiny bit of hope and courage to step out and try something if you're not feeling right in your heart, and be okay to fail with things, just keep going, just find a practice for you. That even will make the joys brighter. This isn't just about if something is wrong, like, why not feel as bright and joyful as you can. But be curious in getting to reconnect with your body and your heart. 

Jennifer Wynn

I love that. Anything you recommend when the going gets tough? Or when the wins come along? 

Jessica Neville

Well, I would say resource, resource, resource, and maybe identify some resources for yourself before you need them. And maybe I'll mention one other that's my like, back pocket when it’s coming on. And you can't sit and listen to a podcast or go through a guided meditation. But I learned this from Andrew Weil it's sort of my one minute breath practice, where if you're just needing to center, so that you can see what is actually arising for yourself, you just breathe in for four, hold for seven, breathe out for eight. Repeat four times. And I do that on walks. I do that before calls. I do that before difficult conversations. And it just creates a bit of space. And it reconnects you to yourself and it, it brings upon it brings on calming, I think pretty quickly for at least just a little while. 

Jennifer Wynn  41:44  

I love that. And it's so doable. 

Jessica Neville  41:46  

It's so doable. And you don't need to buy anything. You've just got your breath for those people for whom breath is accessible, because I know maybe not for everyone that practice might agitate, but but try it. And if that's not the right one, find another resource. 

Jennifer Wynn  42:02  

Yes. I love that. Find a resource that you can replicate. And it comes along with you. Thank you. So Jess I'm curious, what is a piece of art that captures the meaning of healing for you?

Jessica Neville  42:15  

Well there is this song called “Life is a Song” by Patrick Park that I actually encountered maybe 15 years ago. And I keep coming back to it. It just stirs up my heart. And could I just read the refrain to you? 

Jennifer Wynn  42:35  

Yes, please. 

Jessica Neville  42:37  

I won't sing it. I'll just, we'll save that for karaoke. [laughing]

Jennifer Wynn  42:42  

Or we could go to a movie and sing out loud in the theater.

Jessica Neville  42:44  

Like anytime you want to go, Jenn, I'm available. I'm ready. But the refrain is, maybe life is a song. "But you're scared to sing along until the very ending. Oh, it's time to let go of everything we used to know, ideas that strengthen who we've been. It's time to cut ties that won't ever free our minds from the chains and shackles that they're in." And given our whole conversation about the shift from maybe mind work or thinking to embodiment, to dropping some of the stories and sort of tuning in and to creating a sense of urgency to do it now. This song. Again, I've been listening to it. It makes me cry every time I listen to it. But it's still relevant to me 15 years later.

Jennifer Wynn  43:38  

Life Is a Song. 

Jessica Neville  43:40  

Life Is a Song. Let's sing along.

Jennifer Wynn  43:43  

Yeah, right now. Right now, and then keep going. To your point earlier, I can't wait to hear the song. Thank you, Jess.

Jessica Neville  43:54  

Thank you, Jenn. Thank you for having me as part of this heart project of yours.

Jennifer Wynn  44:04  

Hey, beautiful people. Thanks for sticking around for my love and learning outro. This is a short reflection about my key takeaways from this conversation. Here's what I'm loving and learning three things: practices, embodiment, and self compassion. So I'll say a little bit about each one. 

Practices. Whether it's meditation, or gratitude in Jess's case, or some other life affirming practice—prayer, walking, dance—what lifelong practices will I come back to over and over again, to sustain me? And I love what Jess said when she said I can't study my way to those practices. 

The second was embodiment. Jess said I can't think my way out of how I'm feeling. I have to drop out of the stories that I'm telling myself and into my body. And she described over months and months this melting or opening or easing, and eventually dropping into her body. And specifically, she said embodiment is a transformative force for healing. There's so much wisdom in our bodies. And that really resonated with me. 

I think I first experienced that when giving birth, honestly, to first my eldest, and then my second child in a birthing center with a midwife and a squatting stool. But in some ways that felt like wisdom in my body, for my kids, or for someone else's livelihood. I then experienced how the wisdom in my body could serve me in a course I took virtually with the Embodiment Institute. And then I got to experience it at a whole ‘nother level when I had the good fortune of taking Pilates lessons in person with an amazingly gifted bodywork master really named J. Granelli, who was kind enough to be a guest on this show. So, plug for J.'s episode, check it out. But yeah, embodiment has been really key connecting to not only what I'm feeling, but how those feelings show up in my body. Where does fear sit? For me, it's in my chest, like a real tightness around my sternum, a real heat of what I call a ring of fire around my heart. If I'm trying to speak, when I'm scared, it's a lump in my throat. So really being in touch with my body, and where it's holding the hurt. 

And I guess that brings me to the third thing. Self Compassion. Jess said, given the circular nature of healing and the fact that it's not a straight line, it's so important to bring care and kindness, and non-judgment and acceptance to ourselves, and where we are in our journey at any point. And I love how Jess described how she did that. Putting her hand on her heart or on her heart and belly at the same time, feeling her heartbeat, bringing a kind voice to herself. And I want those techniques. This reminds me of how I encourage people I work with, or students at the university to have a pause technique when they are triggered by someone or something or something someone did. And using that pause technique to regulate our own nervous system in the heat of the moment. So know your go to move. Whether it's grounding yourself in the present by taking deep belly breaths, or thinking of a moment of peak performance where you really slayed, you knocked it out of the park despite the challenge, or picturing yourself with someone from whom you feel unconditional love. Whatever your go to pause technique is having it at the ready in the moment of a difficult conversation or just a challenging situation is a game changer. So for me, I'm committed to identifying a few go to self compassion techniques so that I can bring myself that care and kindness and acceptance on my healing journey. 

So my question for you has three parts. What are you loving? What are you learning? And what are you committing to from today's conversation? And if you took away at least one idea or inspiration from today, then please share this episode with someone you love. It would mean so much to us. Thank you so much for listening. Much love, everyone!